Re: Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers?

Today, 7:36 am

guanophore Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Radio Club Member Forum Supporter   Join Date: February 14, 2007 Location: Southwestern United States Posts: 25,871 Religion: Obl. OSB

Re: Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers? Quote: Originally Posted by berk60 You have to be a Berean and search the scripture. Indeed we do, berk60. However, you have misunderstood the meaning of the verse. Acts 17:11-12 1 These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so. What made the Bereans more noble than those in Thessalonica was that they were more receptive to the apostolic message. They received the apostolic preaching with joy. This is the exact opposite of what Sola Scripturists do. Instead of receiving the Apostolic message from the once for all deposit of faith where Jesus placed it, they cut themselves off from that kerygma and attempt to extract the Truth from their truncated Bibles without the Apostolic guidance. What Luke is saying is that the Bereans, who already knew the scriptures, re-examined them in the light of the Apostolic message. This is a basic principle of how we are to read the Bible - through the lens of the Apostolic Faith that produced it. That One Faith is the one preserved infallibly by the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church. __________________ "The tradition of the Apostles has been made manifest throughout the world, and can be found in every Church by those who wish to know the truth." -- Irenaeus, writing about A.D. 189, on how the unity of the Church was based on the Apostolic Tradition everywhere handed down (paradosis).

#512     Today, 12:28 pm

berk60 New Member   Join Date: March 22, 2013 Posts: 133 Religion: Protestant

Re: Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers? Quote: Originally Posted by guanophore Indeed we do, berk60. However, you have misunderstood the meaning of the verse. Acts 17:11-12 1 These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so. What made the Bereans more noble than those in Thessalonica was that they were more receptive to the apostolic message. They received the apostolic preaching with joy. This is the exact opposite of what Sola Scripturists do. Instead of receiving the Apostolic message from the once for all deposit of faith where Jesus placed it, they cut themselves off from that kerygma and attempt to extract the Truth from their truncated Bibles without the Apostolic guidance. What Luke is saying is that the Bereans, who already knew the scriptures, re-examined them in the light of the Apostolic message. This is a basic principle of how we are to read the Bible - through the lens of the Apostolic Faith that produced it. That One Faith is the one preserved infallibly by the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church. The Bereans received the word in all readiness but they verified what was being told to them by searching the scriptures for the selfs just as we should do. "Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so." Acts 17 We shouldn't believe everything the Church tells us if it isn't found in the Bible. There is coming a day when a great deception will be brought for all those who don't love the truth of God's word.

#513     Today, 12:51 pm

kimg901 Regular Member   Join Date: November 11, 2012 Location: Utah Posts: 854 Religion: Roman Catholic

Re: Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers? Quote: Originally Posted by berk60 We shouldn't believe everything the Church tells us if it isn't found in the Bible. There is coming a day when a great deception will be brought for all those who don't love the truth of God's word. And what of tradition(s)? Do you celebrate Christmas? Easter? 4th of July? Any holiday? __________________ In nomine Patris, et filii, et spiritus sancti

#514     Today, 1:51 pm

concretecamper New Member   Join Date: March 2, 2013 Posts: 71 Religion: Catholic

Re: Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers? Quote: Originally Posted by berk60 We shouldn't believe everything the Church tells us if it isn't found in the Bible. There is coming a day when a great deception will be brought for all those who don't love the truth of God's word. Haha. What about those things that are in the Bible yet Protestants still refuse to believe. It is a question of humility. The humility to subject ourselves to Christ and His Church.

#515     Today, 2:03 pm

berk60 New Member   Join Date: March 22, 2013 Posts: 133 Religion: Protestant

Re: Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers? Quote: Originally Posted by concretecamper Haha. What about those things that are in the Bible yet Protestants still refuse to believe. It is a question of humility. The humility to subject ourselves to Christ and His Church. And what would those things in the Bible be but the ones you misinterpret. Humility to God is true humility. Humility to man's word that is contrary to God 's word is error.

#516     Today, 2:10 pm

pablope Regular Member   Join Date: September 29, 2010 Location: California Posts: 5,289 Religion: catholic

Re: Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers? [quote] Quote: Originally Posted by berk60 The Bereans received the word in all readiness but they verified what was being told to them by searching the scriptures for the selfs just as we should do. "Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so." Acts 17 Shoud we do it ourselves, absent any guidance...and read the scripture for ourselves? In this case, how do you prevent pride from clouding one's reading and interpretation? How do you prevent yourself from being deceived with false interpretation and understanding...berk? Quote: We shouldn't believe everything the Church tells us if it isn't found in the Bible. There is coming a day when a great deception will be brought for all those who don't love the truth of God's word. Where does the Bible say this, Berk? Is this a statement of your own making? Your opinion? Who decided what should be found in the Bible or not? Is this statement of yours an infallible statement? Taking what you said to your own situation....do you believe everything your pastor tells you every sunday?

#517     Today, 2:12 pm

pablope Regular Member   Join Date: September 29, 2010 Location: California Posts: 5,289 Religion: catholic

Re: Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers? Quote: Originally Posted by berk60 And what would those things in the Bible be but the ones you misinterpret. Humility to God is true humility. Humility to man's word that is contrary to God 's word is error. Well, the same question can be asked of you....are you sure you have not misinterpretated things in the Bible? This is humility berk...the example of St. Paul: Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain. Who decides what is in error or not? Are you the one to make this decision?

#518     Today, 2:15 pm

pablope Regular Member   Join Date: September 29, 2010 Location: California Posts: 5,289 Religion: catholic

Re: Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers? Quote: Originally Posted by berk60 The Bereans received the word in all readiness but they verified what was being told to them by searching the scriptures for the selfs just as we should do. We shouldn't believe everything the Church tells us if it isn't found in the Bible. There is coming a day when a great deception will be brought for all those who don't love the truth of God's word. By the way Berk...you missed this questions from post 493: [quote] Quote: Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by berk60 You have to be a Berean and search the scripture. So what about the bereans? So everyone has to be a berean to search the scripture? Maybe you are forgetting...they were first taught by St. Paul....and read the scripture with Paul's instructions and oral tradition that he handed down to them. And besides...maybe you are forgetting too....St. Paul had to undergo this before he went to them: Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain. Acts 13: 1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off. If someone who claims to teach the gospel does not follow the example of St. Paul...is that a basis for rejection of his teaching? Quote: Quote: The verse that got us on this topic is referring to the spirit that is driving a human being. When we look at the verse it says, Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1 These false prophets were people bringing a incorrect Gosple into the church. So the verse addresses that issue and says to test the message to see if it's of God or a false prophet. But how do we tell the false prophet from the true one? You still did not answer the question. Agains...is the example of St. Paul one way to tell a false one? Okay...it says to test the spirit....but then....it does not say how to test the spirit? And who does the testing? You? The bible? someone? And well....you cited 1john4:1....but it seems you did not read past the first verse.....why don't you read verse 6....and see what it says.

#519     Today, 2:20 pm

guanophore Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Radio Club Member Forum Supporter   Join Date: February 14, 2007 Location: Southwestern United States Posts: 25,871 Religion: Obl. OSB

Re: Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers? Quote: Originally Posted by berk60 The Bereans received the word in all readiness but they verified what was being told to them by searching the scriptures for the selfs just as we should do. Yes, we should "search the scriptures for the selfs", but we are to do so in the light of what the Apostles believed and taught. When we read them under the Apostolic instruction, as the Bereans did, it prevents us from twisting and distorting them out of ignorance. [quote=berk60;10822728] "Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so." Acts 17[/qiuote] Receiving the Apostolic teaching with "all readiness" means that we understand what is written in them through the lens of the Apostolic faith. Jesus taught His disciples how to understand the Scriptures. He does not expect that we each go to them on our own and try to reconstruct the faith from their pages. The faith is handed down, not extracted. Quote: Originally Posted by berk60 We shouldn't believe everything the Church tells us if it isn't found in the Bible. You have been misinformed about the Apostolic faith, berk60. Jesus did not leave any books, he left a Church. He left an authorative Church into which He breathed the Holy Spirit. The Church is infallible because He is the Head, and she is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. These are the elements that prevent her from error, not the human elements attached to her. Quote: Originally Posted by berk60 There is coming a day when a great deception will be brought for all those who don't love the truth of God's word. Indeed, but God's word is not confined to the pages of Scripture. God's word is alive and well in His One Body, the Church. He has preserved His Word where He has placed it. Isa 55:11 11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and succeed in the thing for which I sent it. __________________ "The tradition of the Apostles has been made manifest throughout the world, and can be found in every Church by those who wish to know the truth." -- Irenaeus, writing about A.D. 189, on how the unity of the Church was based on the Apostolic Tradition everywhere handed down (paradosis).

#520     Today, 2:29 pm

berk60 New Member   Join Date: March 22, 2013 Posts: 133 Religion: Protestant

Re: Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers? [quote=pablope;10823059] Quote: Shoud we do it ourselves, absent any guidance...and read the scripture for ourselves? In this case, how do you prevent pride from clouding one's reading and interpretation? How do you prevent yourself from being deceived with false interpretation and understanding...berk? Where does the Bible say this, Berk? Is this a statement of your own making? Your opinion? Who decided what should be found in the Bible or not? Is this statement of yours an infallible statement? Taking what you said to your own situation....do you believe everything your pastor tells you every sunday? When searching the scripture use hermeneutics . As for the second question of where you can find the bible talking about a future delusion read 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

#521     Today, 3:00 pm

berk60 New Member   Join Date: March 22, 2013 Posts: 133 Religion: Protestant

Re: Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers? [quote=guanophore;10823086]Yes, we should "search the scriptures for the selfs", but we are to do so in the light of what the Apostles believed and taught. When we read them under the Apostolic instruction, as the Bereans did, it prevents us from twisting and distorting them out of ignorance. Quote: Originally Posted by berk60 "Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so." Acts 17[/qiuote] Receiving the Apostolic teaching with "all readiness" means that we understand what is written in them through the lens of the Apostolic faith. Jesus taught His disciples how to understand the Scriptures. He does not expect that we each go to them on our own and try to reconstruct the faith from their pages. The faith is handed down, not extracted. You have been misinformed about the Apostolic faith, berk60. Jesus did not leave any books, he left a Church. He left an authorative Church into which He breathed the Holy Spirit. The Church is infallible because He is the Head, and she is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. These are the elements that prevent her from error, not the human elements attached to her. Indeed, but God's word is not confined to the pages of Scripture. God's word is alive and well in His One Body, the Church. He has preserved His Word where He has placed it. Isa 55:11 11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and succeed in the thing for which I sent it. I admire your faithfulness in letting Gods word continue to evolve at the hands of your church leaders but I also admire the faithfulness of the Jehovah's Witness going door to door but that doesn't make them right. As for me I'm just a simple man and I rely on God's faithfulness of His word in the Bible. I trust with all my heart that though the Holy Spirit He will demonstrate that faithfulness to me through His word. I have all the Apostolic teaching needed in the Bible. God has given us everything we need for living a godly life. We have received all of this by coming to know him, the one who called us to himself by means of his marvelous glory and excellence. (2 Peter 1:3)

#522     Today, 4:06 pm

johntenbrink Trial Membership   Join Date: June 2, 2013 Posts: 5 Religion: protestant

Re: Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers? this thread is in the non catholic section -- so non Catholics should have a different theology understanding than catholics for example http://youtu.be/Q4tET7kJRRw

#523     Today, 4:34 pm

johntenbrink Trial Membership   Join Date: June 2, 2013 Posts: 5 Religion: protestant

Re: Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers? interesting how you guys gang up on people in the non catholic forums So why should a non catholic pray to mary and the dead saints Quote: Quote: The verse that got us on this topic is referring to the spirit that is driving a human being. When we look at the verse it says, Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1 These false prophets were people bringing a incorrect Gosple into the church. So the verse addresses that issue and says to test the message to see if it's of God or a false prophet. and as said earler-- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- But how do we tell the false prophet from the true one? You still did not answer the question. Agains...is the example of St. Paul one way to tell a false one? Okay...it says to test the spirit....but then....it does not say how to test the spirit? And who does the testing? You? The bible? someone? And well....you cited 1john4:1....but it seems you did not read past the first verse.....why don't you read verse 6....and see what it says. ----------------------------------------------- -- so how do catholics tell the difference between a true prophetic work and a false prophetic word?? with all the Mary sightings all over the world -- i seems to be a challange just asking--